A conversation with Sally Rogerson



Chris: Okay, so we’re recording. Can anyone give us a clap?

John: Here it is [Clap]

Chris: Awesome. Fantastic. So, [Incomprehensible] podcast. So, hey everybody. Welcome to Shop Talk brought to you by 124go this is a podcast dedicated to salon professionals that are wanting to grow their career and give back to their hairdressing community. So, I’m Chris Sulimay co-host and I’m here with my great buddy.

John: John Palmieri.

[00:00:30] Chris: And we have an amazing guest today.

John: Yup. I’m excited.

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Chris: So, yeah, super excited. So, we’re sitting here with, maybe I’ll introduce for a little bit before I say who it is.

John: [Crosstalk]

Chris: Yeah, yeah. Let’s make it really. Well, I’m sitting here with somebody who’s for the past two days has been coaching me in bringing out my humility as it relates to presentation skills and haircutting and she really is an amazing leader in the industry. Has been out there for the past seven years,

[00:01:00] created her own hair cutting curriculum and has been bringing that to thousands of salon professionals around the world. But I won’t tell her story for her. Let’s just say before then, she had many years of lead in, you know, with many years of foundational haircutting and many years of hard work to get where you’re at. And so anyway, we’re here with Ms. Sally Rogerson

Sally: Hello everyone.

Chris: And I’m really happy to be here. And so John, how do you want to start this out?

John: You know, one of my favorite places to start is I’d like to know how people entered

[00:01:30] this industry, you know, why you’re dressing, how did this journey begin for you? How did you decide this was the career path for you?

Sally: Well, I think this is very interesting story because it’s also a very similar story as well because we’ve been doing introductions here, we’ve been doing two days of teacher training. And you know, we’ve been talking about this, I find a lot of hairdressers have a very similar story of how they got into the industry. Mine is the traditional path I

[00:02:00] think of, you know, wanting to please your parents. My parents wanted me to go to university. They wanted me to study things like accounting, economics and things like that.

Chris: You’d make a great lawyer or something right?

Sally: Yeah, absolutely. And if you saw me at that time when I was 13, 14, 15, I was very interested in fashion, I was very interested in music it was always just in my bedroom reading ID magazine and the face-

[00:02:30] Chris: Oh, ID [Crosstalk] about that, yeah.

Sally: that kind of stuff right? And [Incomprehensible] music particularly was so such a guiding light at that time, and I was looking for some kind of out honestly. I lived in a very, very small town in England and very rural farming, you know, not much going on at all. And at that time I was just of the opinion that had to get the heck

[00:03:00] out of there as quickly as possible. I always had the weird hair, always had a funny outfit. I don’t know about you, but for me in my formative years and in my childhood, I was not interested ever in ever following anything that anybody else did. Do you know what I mean? A lot of kids, I think want to conform, they want to look the same as their friend, they don’t want to stand out. But I never felt that at all. I love being like

[00:03:30] different, I love being by myself and I had a very strong opinion. So, I think, my parents would definitely really pushing me in that more academic kind of realm. I was trying to find a way out. I went to a hair show and I literally went about 100 miles away from where I was born and I went to Manchester, which is a really big city in the north, very much known

[00:04:00] for its music. And I thought to myself, I’ll go to this show because my friend wanted to become a hairdresser and really I was just thinking it’s an excuse to tell my mom and dad that I’m going legitimately to do something to help my friend. But really I was hoping to get into a night club and, you know, getting some trouble [Crosstalk].

Chris: That sounds, that sounds reasonable to us.

John: [Incomprehensible]

[00:04:30] Sally: So, I just walked in to a hair show on stage or the strangest looking people I’ve ever seen in my life in a good way

John: [Incomprehensible] where they?

Sally: No, that was a little bit after that time, it was-

John: [Crosstalk]

Sally: -around that time. I definitely went to the Hacienda and all of that amazing time. But I literally walked in [Incomprehensible] soon, had a group on stage and everyone just looked wild to me and they

[00:05:00] looked like my magazines come to life and they were doing hair and I remember, the models they were doing cut and color. I had never thought to myself really, how does one do hair? It never occurred to me [Incomprehensible] interested. And I just, I don’t know is the energy, you know what I mean? There’s the energy. And literally I looked at that stage and I thought this is my way out and I went straight up and ask them for a job.

Chris: You know, what I love about your story is that, you know, if it feels

[00:05:30] when you’re walking through that it feels very unique. And you know, I love the way you say and you know, it’s, it’s so much fun when you say, you know, I had weird hair or I wore weird outfits and what is, feels abnormal in the, you know, maybe the regular world out there if we’re going to be a banker or a lawyer or something like that. Right. Becomes very normal when you walk into a group of hairdressers. It’s like, you know, I think so many of us, we talked about the whole saving, we think this career saves people’s lives.

[00:06:00] Sally: 100 percent.


Chris: Because we feel like people finally for the first time going through those formative years and going like, where the hell do I fit in? Yeah. And all of a sudden you go, here are my people. This is my tribe!

John: Yeah. Yeah. You’re touching on something which I think that a lot of hairdressers kind of know, but I think we know it internally. We don’t necessarily express it well and that’s that connect. I mean we know that there’s a connection between hairdressing in fashion. That makes sense. Right? But there’s more to it than that. There’s the art, right?

[00:06:30] There’s the fashion obviously, there’s the music, there’s that community that comes with that and it’s not necessarily, you said it’s a way out. I wonder-

Sally: A way in.

Chris: It’s a way in.

John: Thank you for that. I was thinking the same thing. It’s for me. I’ll speak for myself. It was less about finding a way out, but more about finding out where do I fit, where’s my in, where’s my space, where do I belong? So thank you for that. That was great.

Chris: That’s awesome. So after that, you, and by the way,

[00:07:00] mine was Trevor Sowerby hair show. That was the first time I was like, because I knew I was going to be a little bald guy that was coming. Right? That was coming.

John: [Crosstalk]

Chris: That was never a question. It wasn’t if it was when, and it was like, wow, you know, that’s, he can do it. Then maybe I at least have a little bit of a shot, something fun. And so after that, I know it’s different in England and the states that you all walked through an apprenticeship

[00:07:30] program, so you want to kind of share what happened after that?

Sally: Yeah, absolutely. When I pass through a job, they said go and fill out an application form, which I did. I went home told my mom and dad that I was leaving home. I was 16, I was 15 at the time and I was coming up to my 16th birthday and I said, I’m leaving

John: Tomorrow?

Sally: Yeah, tomorrow. I’m leaving, I’m going to go and be an apprentice, I’m going to apply for this job.

[00:08:00] Of course they were horrified, but, if you’d known me at that time there wasn’t much stopping me. So, it was, definitely I’ve made my mind up. Obviously I won’t need their approval, but I was still going anyway. Very independent person. I’d always, worked three jobs, from about the age of 13, just small, little Saturday jobs, you know, working in the store, whatever. So that work ethic, which I think

[00:08:30] is so important to be successful in this industry, that work ethic was already in me. Do you know what I mean? [Incomprehensible]. So, I knew if I went and became an apprentice, I knew I would also have to work three jobs and I was already okay to do that. So, I’d already thought that through. So, I applied for the job. They said to me, come and have an interview and I don’t know if you’ve ever experienced this, but coming from a

[00:09:00]small town, I think this is a small town mentality in a way. So, I left my small town thinking I was the bees-knees, right? Because it’s all about, you know, being in that smaller environment, big fish in a small pond. I can remember getting in my best clothe on which in my town were like the height of fashion got on the train. It was probably about a two hour train journey. And as that train got closer and closer to the city, all this cool people

[00:09:30] Chris: You got less and less cool.

Sally: I got less and less cool. I started to really doubt myself and my confidence started to disappear. right?

John: You saw fashion progress out the train with alright.

Sally: Yeah it was moving you know.

John: That’s great.

Sally: So, I got off the train and I can remember absolutely thinking shit, what am I going to do because I’m like six months behind, you know what I mean? I’m going to go to [Incomprehensible] soon and walk in the door and I walked up to the

[00:10:00] salon, I walked past and I didn’t go in, I just didn’t go in and I literally, because everyone was so cool and everyone was in [Incomprehensible] that was like everything and Vivienne Westwood and I was just like, oh my God. And I went to a store. I didn’t have very much money. I bought something else to wear, I went and got changed in the changing room and then I walked past again, I must have walked past 10 times and I think I was close to getting back on the train and

[00:10:30] going back [Incomprehensible] and then I slap myself around the face. I was like, come on, you know, walked in there. So intimidating, so intimidating. I was 15 as [Incomprehensible]. So, I walked in dah, dah, dah. There’s 30 people for the interview all same as me, walked in mass interview and looking back now it was a bit like American idol or something and they went around the room and you had to say

[00:11:00] your favorite three designers, something like that, and some people didn’t have anything to say and they will lead out immediately. So, that was around gone and then you went into like a two or three person interview and then eventually went down into a personal interview. It was really hardcore and it was more about keeping the nose than anything else. Do you know what I mean? Super intimidating. I got the job, I left home,

[00:11:30] lived in literally in a closet out my well,

Chris: Very, very, very Manchester anyway right?


Sally: Those literally like four other assistants and we made every room in the house into a room and you had a bigger room if you could afford it and I had a closet, you know what I mean? And it didn’t matter, I don’t really know what happened. I went in the, it was one of the most amazing experiences of my life. I went out every

[00:12:00] single night. I have no idea how, because I had absolutely no money. I never ate lunch, I walk to work and would somehow manage to find a few pounds to go out to a night club. Worked my job every single night and then went out afterwards. And it was an amazing time. I’ve got to be honest, it wasn’t about the hair at all.

Chris: No, you’re having fun.

Sally: It was about the experience. Then I realized, you know, what,

[00:12:30] I can actually do this. This makes sense to me. It was fulfilling to me and I knew if I worked hard I could become good at it, but it wasn’t just like that, you know what I mean?

Chris: Yeah. And I feel like this is a really good topic. It’s very, it’s really become relevant right now. And what I mean by that is me being older, a little older and been through a bit in the business and I feel like when I entered the industry

[00:13:00] in the early nineties, late eighties or early nineties there was this rockstar feel to it. And then I think we went through a very business stage where this become a business. I think hairdressers became business-people, salons got more serious about it, got a little tougher to run a business and grow a team and all that. And in the past few years, obviously the social media thing, I think people are remembering that they can room with five people

[00:13:30] and sleep in a closet and go after their dreams. And, you know, one of the interesting things that a guru that I listened to all the time talks about that I agree with and probably have always agreed with is there’s that moment of decision where your parents or people around you are expecting you to do one thing and you just have to like go with your gut. And Brian talked about this on our first podcast like, this is either going to be hugely successful or a complete

[00:14:00] failure, but it’s not going to be in the middle. And that’s something I think young people have to be okay with today is like, you know, what you got life is shorter and longer than you think. Right? And if you don’t like make that, if you didn’t make that happy decision, right? And go. You know what, I’m going to do this and like stayed at home just because your parents kind of told you that, you know, who I’m sure you’d have been happy, but who knows what you would have missed out on.

Sally: I would done the house then.

Chris: Yeah, right? Right?

[00:14:30] Sally: I would know if it’s a good decision.

John: You’re going through the same process and you know, listening to your story and you’re right, there’s a lot of similarities there. I can remember starting my own business. Right. And the question comes up what, how did you think he could do that?

Chris: Sure.

John: You and I had this conversation before and I was like, you mean-

Chris: You could not?

John: -you could not?

Chris: Right, right.

John: I just thought that’s what you did you do that someday.

Sally: Exactly.

John: And I remember the question came up, why are you afraid? And I was like, thinking about it for a minute,

[00:15:00] and I was like, well, here’s what would have happened. The worst thing that could have happened was I would’ve sold my $300 old mobile and moved out of my apartment and back there at my Volks and that’s the worst thing that could possibly happen. Am I good?

Sally: Yeah.

Chris: So, fast forward is a little bit. You spent some time at Sassoon’s, you did, and you did all, you held all kinds of positions and titles there and grew up through the ranks. And if you could bring us midway into that journey because

[00:15:30] you ended up from there to here somehow catch us up a little bit.

Sally: Yeah. I became a stylist on the floor when I was about 18, which is, you know, quite young and you know, in England a lot of people do go and travel for a year or two. It’s pretty normal. And all of my friends were going off backpacking.

Chris: I’m going to interrupt you for one second because what you just said is so big to me, you had three

[00:16:00] years of training, you know, and I may kids that like nowadays they go through a nine month hair school program and they want, I want to have already achieved the impatience and what you’re talking about is three full years of training before you got on the floor.

Sally: Oh yeah. So, three years. And then, yeah, all my friends went off traveling and I don’t know, I was like, I’m going to go with them. I felt like I was

[00:16:30] missing out on something, because everyone else went to university and I didn’t. That was like my university and my college degree. So, I left. I went traveling for a few years and then, when I came back to England, Prince Charles had this, Prince’s Trust for young people to try and encourage them to open new businesses. And it was this really big push during all of my training and everything. I’d always also

[00:17:00] been, collecting vintage clothing, remaking it, selling it on, so I’d always been-

John: [Crosstalk]

Sally: -this lame. Yeah. And I’d always had that entrepreneurial experience as well. So, I figured out that they would give me a grant to open a business. So, I then moved to Leeds and I opened up a vintage clothing and furniture store because I knew quite a lot about collectibles and that kind of stuff.

[00:17:30] So, I did that for about two years and that was really successful. But I started to just really love the idea of doing Harrigan. All of my friends were now in London, in the school and they were all like the art directors and that kind of stuff. So, I remember pitching it them and saying who’s thinking about coming back? And they were like, come back to London and, you know, get back in again. And I’ve always wanted to teach in the school. So, I say to myself, I want to go back and become a teacher

[00:18:00] and I had to go back in, I had to retrain a little bit and move through the ranks pretty quickly. They want it to put me in the salon and I literally called Simon Alice at the time because he was the lead guy in the school and I called him every single Friday and I said to him, is there room for a teacher in the school yet? And he said, well no, but you asked me last Friday and the answer is still

[00:18:30] the same, and I literally called him every single Friday until he gave in and then one day I got sick of it and said, okay, you can come in the school, and that’s kind of how I became a teacher.

John: So, tell me a little bit more about that because when we first started this conversation and you’ve got very much involved in the art and the fashion and music and all of that, and somewhere along that journey you decided, I really want to teach. Now, to me that’s it. That’s not rock and roll. Right?

Sally: Yeah, yeah. Oh no,

[00:19:00] they wasn’t, the teachers in the London school were the coolest people they were even weirder and they were even more into fashion. And this school was full of Japanese students and they were just fashioned from head to toe and it was so exciting and that’s where I wanted to [Crosstalk]

John: [Crosstalk]

Sally: Yeah. So I got into the school and realized that was truly my passion. And then, you know, I was lucky enough, my mentor

[00:19:30] is Tim Hartley and I spent a lot of my career traveling the world with him [Incomprehensible]. I mean the people that I worked with were just insane. I was one of the youngest people on the, our team in London. So, I mean I can remember being in the academy where they took all of the new collections and being that new young teacher was really, really hard. I was the newest person. I was the youngest person

[00:20:00] and I knew in my heart that nobody wanted to be in my group. I knew that, so I had to work so hard to win those people over. You know, it was like in the afternoon when they did the work session, it would be like maybe five or six teachers. It would be Tim Hartley over there. That would be Mark Hayes over there, there would be Richard Ashford over there, you know, there would be, you know, [Incomprehensible] over that it was like, and then it’d be me, you know, and I knew

[00:20:30] looking at those people, none of them wanting to be my group and it was the best thing for me in the world because I had to work even harder, had to be even more creative. I had to win those people over and that was the best education I could have.

Chris: Yeah. That’s fantastic.

John: When you talk about teaching, right? What does that do for you? I mean, you said you found your passion, right? Which I think is a little bit of a different journey than just doing hair on customers.

[21:00] Tell me more about how does that feed you? And what is it about teaching that just fills you up?

Sally: I think it’s so important to me. I’m definitely just love that moment when you break something down to someone and it connects with them and that’s really what I love. I love being in the class one on one with people trying to figure them out, trying to help them and that is really just so big for me

[00:21:30] and I really liked the nuances of teaching. I’m always trying to figure out the even more simple, quick, efficient way that I can get this piece of information into you. So, I’m always just working on this and working on that. Do you know what I mean? Obviously I am a very creative person as well and I love doing creative work in editorial and I’m also a photographer and I do so many things, but if you took everything away

[00:22:00] and left me with one thing, that one thing would be teaching somebody. I don’t care what I’m teaching them. I enjoy the process.

John: I know this isn’t the Chris’ interview, but you love working with the students too, right?

Chris: I adore working with students. So, yeah. No, same, same. And I can tell by, sally has some not so subtle ways of teaching. Have you ever taken a class from her? She also has some subtle ways of teaching

[00:22:30] and you have to know your audience. And the thing about learners are like that. I believe that all people are good inside, like I mean, unless you’re psychotic or whatever, but like, you know, I believe that all and they’re really trying their best and like, you know, their defense systems, flare especially in situations where there’s learning happening because learning is unfamiliarity. Right? And so, you know, I’ve watched you for the past two days with

[00:23:00] just five different learners, but all higher level professionals kind of dance your dance and it’s such a chess match for a really good cause which is, which kind of brings me into my next question, which is SR education. So let me plug first please. Very shameless. So, I’ve heard your name back when I was at Cune and I knew that there might be some, you know, a discussion here and Sally might come and do a program that was all I knew of you at the time.

[00:23:30] Fast forward, when I was coming on board and slum on 24 group, a group of the girls were going out to this thrive sessions in Denver, which I really had no idea what I was signing up for. I was just like, yeah, I’ll go to a hair. I hadn’t been education and years besides doing education. Right? So it was like, Holy Shit. The first time I’ve actually going to sit in a class and not have to say a word if I want to.

Sally: Yeah. Kind of cool.

Chris: All I always end up talking either way, but I went

[00:24:00] through that weekend and was so impressed and you all have it through, another thrive sessions coming up here in a couple of months and I know that SR education really is the power where you’re kind of the brains behind that thing happening. I know you have some partners involved, but thrive sessions is coming. So, I guess question one is SR education. What is it? And who can be a part of like, God and Brag on SR education thing.

Sally: Well, I left Sassoon. I spent my whole career there, my whole life there.

[00:24:30] I moved from London to LA, I was the senior creative director in the LA Academy in Santa Monica. And then about seven years ago I just really decided I’m going to go for it. I’m going to really try and achieve my dream and my dream was to develop a training program and an education company that I could then build. And I really wanted to support the salon stylist. I really felt

[00:25:00] at the time that hair education was getting more and more complicated. I felt like all of the brands and all of the companies, we’re just trying to talk to each other and it was so complicated and I was part of that if you’d been in my class doing a creative class we’ve made. So, I stripped everything back and I tried to simplify everything and I wanted to create a program that would be easy to understand,

[00:25:30] beneficial to people in the style on every day. And I got to the point where I felt like the words solemn work or any kind of indication that you were doing commercial work seemed to be like, looked down upon like, oh, you do live balls, you know, and it was like you were already successful and you had this crazy clients call and you can disconnect every single makeup. That’s not reality.

Chris: No. That’s all what’s happening.

[00:26:00] and so on. So, yeah.

Sally: It’s not what’s happening and so on. So, you know, really want me to do something that was real. That was a big thing for me. I think I got far, so far removed from real hair. I want it to get back into that again. So, that’s when it started. SR education. I left again, you know, I’m that kind of person it’s all or nothing, I’ve always had a very entrepreneurial spirit, have always been very business minded as well. I’d like to just make things happen. It’s exciting to me.

[00:26:30] I like that thrill of it. So, I left and I started SR education. I got into Kickstarter, I think I was one of the first people in the industry to use Kickstarter.

Chris: That’s amazing.

John: That’s great.

Sally: I’m lucky because my husband is a producer, so we filmed for like probably 15 days and brought out my first collection of dvds. I got about $70,000 from Kickstarter to go towards it.

John: Wow, that’s great.

[00:27:00] Sally: Yup. And I felt like I was on some kind of political rally, you know, literally didn’t take any classes for about a month and I literally went everywhere, went into schools, went into [Incomprehensible], did demos, talked about Kickstarter and raised funds and it was just such a great situation because I could go and talk to people about SR education as well. So, you know, it was marketing as well, obviously.

[00:27:30] So, I used Kickstarter, that was seven years ago and before I’d seen anybody else use Kickstarter.

Chris: Yeah [Incomprehensible]

Sally: Yeah. Yeah. So, that was really cool. We did it again for a men’s program as well and raise money and I now have an online platform that we built ourselves, you know, for our haircutting program. So, SR education has really grown. It started off just as more of a hair cutting program, but now it’s teacher training.

[00:28:00] We have salon apprentice programs that people follow. We’re just moving through into color and raise a [Incomprehensible] in starting this year. I have a really amazing team of people now as well and I have also kind of franchised out a little bit so we have a few different academies now so people are also teaching SR education classes that have trained with me and so we have some satellite locations as well,

[00:28:30] but everything really was all about trying to get a location open. And that’s literally what is happening on Monday.

John: Monday?

Sally: So, on Monday my school is opening and that’s in Scottsdale, Arizona. I left La, moved to Scottsdale so I could open a space and we are going to be an advanced training program. We’re also going to open for cosmetology, very small boutique cosmetology

[00:29:00] school starting in March.

John: Congratulations.

Sally: And Tim Hartley, who is my mentor, I met when I was 17, is coming in January to open the school.

John: That’s amazing.

Sally: So very, very exciting. If any of you want to, come and spend some time with Tim. We do have a couple of places left for his workshop.

Chris: But tell us about the ride. So, how do we get there?

Sally: So then, I also have another business which is

[00:29:30] a hair show and that’s called thrive sessions. So, this is really all about the hair show. I felt personally that the hair shows just got so big, get lost in them totally.

Chris: Totally.

Sally: The [Incomprehensible]. I don’t know what’s going on.

John: [Incomprehensible] mark it up for a while.

Chris: Yeah, 100 percent. And I’m going to cut you off again, which is, by the way, the theme on our podcast [Crosstalk] Yeah, we’re always, but going to thrive sessions, you know, it was small,

[00:30:00] I’m going to say it was appropriately sized, right? So, it was small but perfect. The perfect sized classrooms. You picked fantastic instructors. I sat in on a hair extensions class with LB, had no intention of sitting in that class for more than 10 minutes just to get a snapshot and then bring back some information for the team stayed for three hours. Actually, we’ve tear extensions that I’m going to get certified.

[00:30:30] Sally: Isn’t that amazing?

Chris: Amazing. Who I know is, she’s sort of your partner in this right?

Sally: Yep. So Lindsay Guzman is someone that I met. She was in my teacher training program and she’s now become one of my SR education academies in Denver and she also has an amazing hair education academy. So, we’ve got together and become partners in this thrive sessions, which is our hair show. So, March the 24th and 25th

[00:31:00] we’re going to be in Seattle. It’s got bigger than it was last year in Denver and we’ve got more artists. So, this is again all about allowing a stylist in the salon to thrive and we know that this style is to a very, very good in that area. But then the like either get a bit bored, what am I going to do now? What’s the new challenge or how do I raise my revenue at this point? And so if you’re someone that does

[00:31:30] really great cut and color, how can you raise it when you couldn’t start mastering extension right? Or you can start mastering your social media or you know.

Chris: Great social media fast there.

Sally: Yeah. So, those elements. So, what we wanted to do was get a group of independent artists to come together to fill in all of those gaps that people struggle with in the salon. So, we have eight different classes having social media with

[00:32:00] Nina, she’s has a company called Passion Squared, who’s a very famous and really amazing social media company. We also have destroy the hairdresser who are going to be all business coaching company. We have Jay Olson from Polk Right, who specializes in like foliage and a really beautiful head painting. We also have LB extension classes. I’m going to be doing a

[00:32:30] new razor class. We also have a speed foil placement class, still some classic hair cutting and then the evening we’re going to have an evening show and I’ve managed to persuade again, my mentor Tim Hartley and Tina Anderson to come over and they’re going to be doing a huge evening show, like a proper hair show. But it’s still exciting. You can still see every single person that attended the

[00:33:00] show. You can network, you can talk to so many amazing sponsors and have experiences. And I’m really looking forward to it. Hopefully we’re going to take this all over the world, right?

John: I mean, I know this sounds silly, but we’re excited.

Chris: We’re excited yeah, we’re excited.

John: We were already on staff members saying, Hey, I’m going to need the 24th and 25th of March we’re going [Incomprehensible].

Sally: That will be great.

Chris: Count us in because we’re taking off those days too.

John: It was funny because one of the staff asked me, hey, the [Incomprehensible] events coming in

[00:33:30] like, it is. And I went to the website, I couldn’t find the date and went here and I couldn’t find the date. There was a Instagram story and one of my staff at follow Instagram story and I had actually go, where did you find it? It was on Instagram story? I’m like, let’s write this down. Yeah,

Sally: Well, we’ve just launched it. So, I really hope you’re going to be seeing it everywhere because we’re really launching it on all of our social media, et Cetera, et cetera.

John: So, if I can, I want to ask you a deeper question now. You know, so

[00:34:00] you’ve gone on this amazing journey you’ve gotten to where you’re at now and what’s really great is the excitement and passion that you still bring right? Which is contagious. So, thank you by the way. I want to ask, you know, along that journey, what have you seen change in our industry and you know, we talked a little bit about the desire to work three jobs and know what that looks like. Right? We’ve talked about before the power of social media and what that looks like in our industry.

[00:34:30] We kind of knock on certain segments of our population. We affectionately call them millennials and we say they don’t really work hard. You Got Chris and I will [Crosstalk]

Chris: Yeah. We think they do.

John: We’ve worked really hard.

Sally: Just different.

John: Just work different. Alright. So what are the changes you’ve seen in the industry where you know, where do you see us going? What are the big changes you see that maybe we need to confront? I want to touch briefly on this. You said something interesting about wanting to take education. You didn’t say this, but I’m going to

[00:35:00] say it, taking it away from the manufacturers and putting it back with the hairdresser, that haircut it gotten way over here someplace, you need to bring it back down. So, tell me, tell me what you’ve seen, what are the changes?

Sally: I think one of the biggest things for me is obviously just what it looks like from a hairdressing point of view. So many people now, particularly on the West Coast working by themselves in studios, etc. And I get it. I understand.

[00:35:30] I want to be in control of what music goes on. I want to be in my own space. I totally get it. But it’s also very dangerous, isn’t it? Because hairdressers like a completely separate group of people and we really enjoy being together and we really feed off of each other and we’re a bit nosy, we want to see what’s going on right? And so that piece I

[00:36:00] think is dangerously being affected in the industry right now. I think I have people come in to class all the time and say to me, you know, I just really, really enjoying being in here with a group of hairdressers. Even if they don’t know them just walked in by themselves, they know they need to be with the hood. You know what I mean? So, I think that from an education point of view, I think that so many people are working

[00:36:30] individually or in small salons, they are not going to accumulate loads and loads of education points because they don’t sell enough product, they don’t go through enough product because they’re one man band. So, they can’t rely on getting their education that way and they have to go and seek out in a different manner. And that’s why independent education, etc. Is I think, you know, so well received at the moment and it’s such a big movement

[00:37:00] as well. And I think people are really thinking about where are they putting their money, where are they putting their hard earned money and they want something of value and they want something they can take back and use and It can empower them. I don’t think people are looking for some crazy technique that they’ll never use anymore because they are using their own money now. They’re not using the salon owner’s money, they’re not using the points anymore.

[00:37:30] They’re by themselves now. So, it’s different. So, I think really the industry has changed definitely. What I’m also seeing is, you know, people want different things, don’t they, you know, the older generation of hairdressers I think, you know, love to bang on about the old days.

Chris: I know, I know.

Sally: The old days. And I was training myself-

Chris: I thought my self not doing that or trying to stop saying that because,

[00:38:00] nobody gives a shit.

Sally: Nobody cares!

Chris: Nobody cares!

Sally: It just makes you look old fashioned.

Chris: Old, yeah.

Sally: So, it’s not about age, is it? It’s about state of mind. I’ve met amazing hairdressers in the sixties and they are so modern forward thinking. It’s so refreshing. And I’ve met 30 year olds that are complaining about the [Incomprehensible] day. So I think that, you know, not, you cannot, you cannot legitimately as a stylist say,

[00:38:30] oh, you know, I don’t like social media or it’s too technical for me, or I don’t want to get involved in all that kind of stuff. That’s ridiculous! You got to get with it.

John: I had a coaching session with one of our stylists the other day and she’s struggling a little bit and one of our challenges was I didn’t really know I need to get on social media. I was like, well, how are you doing? she was like, well, I’ve got to post on Instagram. And I was like, how does that work when she was like, I just, I can’t get into it. You’re, struggling to build,

[39:00] right? But you don’t want to do this. You’re struggling.

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.

Sally: So you have time?

John: So yeah. So that’s the sad part, right? Talk about how social media has affected our industry from your eyes.

Sally: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it’s your new shop window. Right? So, I think for me personally when I qualified, you would literally go and sit in the back break room and you would wait for a client to walk in off the street or you will be fed

[00:39:30] in new clients. Those days are over. You need to go out and hustle and find your clients and I think there’s nothing wrong with going out on your community and still, you know, really connecting with people because it’s still very powerful. But what’s quicker, much easier to get on social media and start to show what you can do, you know, to clients and to people in your community. So, I think what’s really happened is the people that have really taken the bull by the horns

[00:40:00] and really gone for it and got their heads around it have really, really thrived at it. And I think it’s really exciting to see. I definitely hear people saying derogatory things and negative things like, oh, well they’ve, you know, they’ve just got a big Instagram following and you know, it doesn’t mean that they can do really good hair. And I feel like I’m a better hairdresser than that person, but they are just famous cause they’ve got more followers. Oh my god. Do you know how hard these people are working

[00:40:30] to get that amount of followers? That is full time job. They might not be doing as much hair as you, but they are working way harder in different areas. So I take my hat off to anyone that’s got a crazy amount of followers because I know how much work they’re putting in to do it, so much work.

Chris: Totally.

Sally: Like Myelin.

John: And I think it’s one of those things where you have this buildup, right? Where you’re building, you’re building, you’re building you’re putting a lot of work in the social media.

[00:41:00] You’re building, you’re building and you may not be seeing that great return in the beginning, but all of a sudden you hit this threshold and blam! The chair’s fold and people are coming in and you’re busy and you’ve got a waiting list. People at DM in using, I need an appointment and you’re like, ah, it’s going to be three months.

Sally: Yeah? How exciting is that?

John: And how can you knock that? Maybe you don’t see it until it hits that threshold and all of a sudden the light switched.

Chris: Hey, look you got to put in to work I mean, yeah, I mean you talked about the beginning of your career to kind of start to

[00:41:30] circle this back. I can’t emphasize three years, you know, I can’t emphasize that enough. Three years and then a two year hiatus probably partying around Europe which work all jealous of, but, but that’s a five year span and really, and nothing happened yet. Then you had to beg to get a job again. So, maybe we’re looking at six years now and today I want it today if I’m new and so,

John: [Incomprehensible]

Chris: yeah, and you know what I get it like, you know, we

[00:42:00] all get it.

John: [Incomprehensible] 12 months
Chris: Right. Absolutely.

John: But I also know that that’s probably not realistic, I’m going to have to put the work totally. [Incomprehensible] you know, if this is still sitting in my head, so excuse me, but I love the story you told about being on the train and watching fashion fly by you or progression-

Sally: True!

John: -[Crosstalk] The suburbs into the city, right? And you walked. And I think that social media is that for us, I’m going to make a really bad connection because

[00:42:30] through social media you’re looking out the window.

Chris: That’s right.

John: And you’re watching zoom by.

Chris: That was a great connection [Incomprehensible]

John: [Crosstalk] to watch that zoom by. Oh, you get to do it from the comfort of your partner while [Incomprehensible]

Chris: I love it, I love it. Well, I, I feel like we could talk all day long with [Incomprehensible]

John: [Incomprehensible] bad because I’m not finished.

Chris: I know you’re [Crosstalk] So, do you want to ask Sally one more question?

[00:43:00] John: [Crosstalk]I can’t ask one more question.

Chris: Well typically what we do to start to wind our podcasts up Sally, is just to kind of, you know, picture the listener who might be listening to us and you know, whether it’s a hairdresser, possibly newer, or maybe somebody who’s in their career who’s kinda curious about next level stuff. What’s some advice that you’d love to leave a student with when you have the opportunity to make an impression?

Sally: I think the biggest thing is just work hard, you know, and be impressive and don’t take no for an answer. I mean,

[00:43:30] that’s what I always did. That’s why I still do. Someone tells me no, not interested. I’ll just keep going until I get it. So, determination, not taking no for an answer and just putting the work in. I will always employ the most enthusiastic person in the room rather than the best technical person in the room. So, be impressive, push yourself forward. Go and find someone that you want to work for

[00:44:00] and go bang on the door, literally or on social media. I get so many messages all the time. How can I work for you? How can I come and do work experience? You know, it’s great. It’s exciting. So, you know, don’t take no for an answer. Be determined and go for it. That’s the biggest thing.

Chris: Yeah, fantastic John.

John: I’m great. And like I said, if I ask any more questions that I have stopped at one, I just really want to say thank you. We got to me, I’ll keep this short.

[00:44:30] We got to meet sally because she came to work at our academy and work with our instructors to help us up our game as instructors [Crosstalk]

Chris: [Crosstalk] academy by 124 in-

John: Lawrenceville, Georgia. So, our journey started there and I just have to let you know that that’s made a great difference in both what our instructors can deliver and their ability to pass that onto our students.

Sally: Good. Thank you for-

John: So, I want to say thank you for that.

Chris: And I want to also say thank you for just for the past couple of days, but also again, for

[00:45:00] sitting down with us. We just spent, Sally just spent a long day teaching. She put her money where our mouth is and sat down with us, you know, a shell and that, you know, even at your level putting in the hard work, you could have said no and you didn’t. And so we appreciate that. That’s said if you’re listening to this podcast and you feel like you enjoyed it and want to keep hearing more, please hit the subscribe button. And you can find us in a few different places. You can find us at 124go on YouTube where we’re constantly

[00:45:30] uploading new videos, have a lot of behind the scenes stuff. So, as many of you know, we work with six salon group. We have 130 hairdressers and we share a lot of leadership behind the scenes, a lot of behind the scenes, interpersonal meetings with how that team has operated there. You can also find us on Instagram at 124.go and feel free to message us and reach out. Also, if you enjoyed this podcast, please screenshot it and share

[00:46:00] us in our Instagram, your Instagram stories tag us and we will do the same for you.

John: And don’t forget if you’re a podcast app allows you to leave with a-

Chris: Wicked nice review.

John: -wicked nice review, I prefer five stars.

Chris: Thanks everybody for listening. And until next time.

John: Yeah, thanks to be here.

Chris: Bye.

Sally: Bye.